By Lidia, Harlequin Presents fan
As an avid reader of Harlequin Presents romances, it thrilled me to write a blog on this site.
I began to read HPs when they were first published. I went to school in the evenings for both my undergraduate and graduate degrees. During that time I had a long commute by bus every day – and read on the bus every day. Between work and studying I wanted to read something for relaxation – HPs filled that need. They were pure entertainment, something that I truly needed.
HPs have a great number of talented and wonderful authors. It amazes me how many of the early authors are still writing today. They were able to move on with the times and write stories that are acceptable today.
The authors come from all different parts of the world. Each and every one of them is unique. One of the drawbacks to this is that sometimes they end up writing about something that is acceptable in their part of the world but not elsewhere.
For example, in the U.S. it is against the law (in almost all of the states) for first cousins to marry (the heroine’s and hero’s parents are siblings and they have the same grandparents). Yet in Europe, even if that is not encouraged, it is not illegal.
I’ve read books with first cousins and they’ve turned me off. I realize that it is a cultural thing – but I can’t get past it. Being brought up to think that is illegal and immoral had a huge impact on me. Have you encountered this type of situation with a different cultural difference? Where you able to enjoy the book regardless?
This is interesting to me because it goes beyond what someone may consider to be a “hot button.†We all have our “hot buttons†as to what we don’t like to read. This is different because it is based on our upbringing and cultural differences; it is not a personal like/dislike.
31 Responses to “Romance Novels and Cultural Differences”
- 1 Pingback on Jun 3rd, 2008 at 4:47 am
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Hi Lidia
Great to see you blogging here – but I’m not surprised. You have such a long record of reading Presents that you could probaly tell everyone the history of so many authors and books.
The point you raise is interesting because the international appeal of the line is one of its greatest strengths and yet at the same time the need to appeal to so many different readers means that those individual ‘hot buttons’ will always risk being a problem. When I write I never set out with any intention of upsetting or triggering any particular concern any one or more readers might have, but at the same time I don’t believe that writers can try and think of – and anticipate – all the ‘ buttons that will upset readers to read. That would restrict my writing to something that comes close to that dreaded ‘formula’ word. But I do have all those readers in my head and I wouldn’t knowingly trample on anyone’s beliefs or standards.
But I do think that there are general, unifying ideas and beliefs that will always hold strong no matter who writes or reads them. And the greatest of these is the idea of the transforming power of love (as Trish Moreay said a few posts back) and the fact that when it flowers between a man and a woman it is one of the strongest and best forces on earth – that’s one part of writing/reading/enjoying Presents that unites everyone, the world over.
I hope you continue to enjoy reading Presents for many more years to come
Kate
Oh, Lidia – one of my pet moans as an author is that vexed question of cousin marriage! That’s because there are so many great plots that can exploit cousin marriages, especially where inheritances are concerned. And now, grumble grumble, I can’t use any of them!
It wasn’t until I started writing Presents that I realised the Americans had such a ‘thing’ (as it seems to Brits) about cousin marriage, and I can remember a fascinating discussion on eHarlequin about it, to try and understand between ourselves why there was such a ban on it in so much of the USA.
I think it came down to there being in the past so many small, isolated pioneer communities, which had to be very cautious about excessive inbreeding, hence the ban on cousin marriages for very sound reasons at the time. After that, it just became culturally ingrained, hence the ‘revulsion’ that still is associated with it and the taint of incest it carries. It might not be rational any more (if you aren’t at risk of inbreeding), but it’s still powerful, for all that.
I think you’re quite right about ‘hot buttons’ in general, and if one of them gets pushed in a book it does just turn you off completely. We’ve seen that already here in debates about tricky issues like whether sex in HPs is ever non-consensual, or just how much ‘bad behaviour’ an alpha hero can get away with!
Culturally, too, one key issue that can highlight differences is that of the heroine’s virginity, and perhaps, too, the issue of pre-marital sex, or just what the heroine gets up to in bed, and how many lovers she’s had. All potentially very sensitive issues! One cultural barrier that I know I have personally, is how many lovers the heroine has had. I know I ’shouldn’t’ mind if she’s had as many as the hero (sexual equality, after all!), but I probably wouldn’t like her to have had more than three or four by the time she meets the hero. And I certainly know I wouldn’t want her to get up to some sexual practices in bed that I’m not happy about myself!!!! Again, culturally ingrained in my generation, I suspect. Whereas younger ‘raunch-educated’ women may take it in their stride!
Julia
Kate Walker wrote: “When I write I never set out with any intention of upsetting or triggering any particular concern any one or more readers might have, but at the same time I don’t believe that writers can try and think of – and anticipate – all the ‘ buttons that will upset readers to read.”
Absolutely. I’ve found if there’s something I dislike in a book, I can easily find 10 people who *love* it and vice versa. I think if authors worried about pleasing everyone, nothing would ever get written!
I’m surprised cousins marrying isn’t taboo everywhere by now. I thought was more of a historical than geographical thing. I looked it up and apparently it is legal in Canada to marry your first cousin — Canada’s first Prime Minister John A. Macondald married his second cousin — but I haven’t heard of it happening recently. I don’t think I would read a *contemporary* romance with a cousin couple, but I wouldn’t rule it out in a historical because it was more common back then — like in “Mansfield Park” by Jane Austen or “The Moonstone” by Wilkie Collins.
* John A. Macdonald, that is. Hope my university doesn’t take back my history degree!
“I’m surprised cousins marrying isn’t taboo everywhere by now.”
Funny, I think just the opposite! (obviously my European upbringing showing!) Health wise it’s not a problem unless there is a whole history of marriage within the same family (hence the ban in the first place), or if there are particular genetic problems in a family that make it inadvisable. Or if the sibling parents were identical twins. (I’ve always been intrigued by the realisation that if two I/d twins marry two other i/d twins, their mutual children are genetically full siblings, not cousins!)
“I think if authors worried about pleasing everyone, nothing would ever get written!”
Very true – we just have to please the eds!!!!!!! (and they, of course, bear the heavy responsibility of reading the romance market accurately – scary!)
Julia
I enjoyed reading everyone’s points regarding this topic. I do have to stress that I was strictly talking about first cousins. Second cousins onward are OK.
There does seem to me a bit of a contradiction (not sure if that is the correct word to use in this context) though in some of the books. In some books when the heroine is somewhat jealous of this closeness between the hero and another woman he’ll say something to the effect of: “she’s just my cousin” implying that there can be no romantic relationship. Yet, if it is not taboo, theoretically, he could be having some sort of “romantic/physical” relationship with her.
I do have to say that the first cousin theme was more popular in the past. I have not come across recent books with that plot.
Hello to Lidia, Kate, Julia and Amy,
I have read your interesting discussion, and, before logging off for the evening, I want to add a few thoughts:
The last I looked, in the United States, marriage between first cousins was prohibited in 24 states, permitted with restriction in 7 states, and permitted without restriction in 19 states. So, in more than half the states, marriage between first cousins is permissible in some form.
Over the years, there has been debate amongst scholars as to the motive behind the laws prohibiting such marriages, especially as the genetic defect argument does not support the prohibition. One theory, which I find interesting, but which I have not examined closely, is that the motive behind such laws was to promote assimilation by immigrants through non-familial marriage, thereby preventing familial marriage considered acceptable amongst arriving Europeans.
There is no doubt, however, that, to most Americans, marriage between first cousins (and even more distantly related cousins) is culturally taboo. I can remember reading an historical romance (not HQN) years ago in which the heroine got caught up with a man who married her for the purpose of hiding an incestuous relationship with his pregnant sister or half-sister, and was rescued from the situation by the hero. It was almost so shocking that, to my American mind, it overshadowed the romance between the heroine and hero.
Speaking of past readings, I have never read a single Harlequin Romance or Harlequin Presents novel that has offended my sensibilities. So, I would say to the Harlequin authors: “Keep on writing without concern of offending me!”
Julia, let’s talk about what’s consensual sex in HP and what’s not, and just how much ‘bad behavior’ an alpha hero can get away with. Some of my alpha heros are very bad boys (with regrets, of course)!
Madeline
Hello to Lidia, Kate, Julia and Amy,
I have read your interesting discussion, and, before logging off for the evening, I want to add a few thoughts:
The last I looked, in the United States, marriage between first cousins was prohibited in 24 states, permitted with restriction in 7 states, and permitted without restriction in 19 states. So, in more than half the states, marriage between first cousins is permissible in some form.
Over the years, there has been debate amongst scholars as to the motive behind the laws prohibiting such marriages, especially as the genetic defect argument does not support the prohibition. One theory, which I find interesting, but which I have not examined closely, is that the motive behind such laws was to promote assimilation by immigrants through non-familial marriage, thereby preventing familial marriage considered acceptable amongst arriving Europeans.
There is no doubt, however, that, to most Americans, marriage between first cousins (and even more distantly related cousins) is culturally taboo. I can remember reading an historical romance (not HQN) years ago in which the heroine got caught up with a man who married her for the purpose of hiding an incestuous relationship with his pregnant sister or half-sister, and was rescued from the situation by the hero. It was almost so shocking that, to my American mind, it overshadowed the romance between the heroine and hero.
Speaking of past readings, I have never read a single Harlequin Romance or Harlequin Presents novel that has offended my sensibilities. So, I would say to the Harlequin authors: “Keep on writing without concern of offending me!â€
Julia, let’s talk about what’s consensual sex in HP and what’s not, and just how much ‘bad behavior’ an alpha hero can get away with. Some of my alpha heros are very bad boys (with regrets, of course)!
Madeline
Hi! Just found the time to log in again, so sorry to miss the other topics esp. the one about heroines, would have loved to give my 2 cents worth!:)
Anyway, here’s another thing about cultural differences which I can totally identify with but I wonder if some other readers can. It’s when the family of the hero (coming from Greek, or Italian or another very-family oriented culture) has some “bearing” or “say” in the hero’s choice of girlfriend/partner/wife. It’s one of the things I hate about my own culture, and when I do encounter it in the books, I get turned off. I can’t really imagine an Alpha Male being a mama’s boy! If the heroine have some bad history with the family, that I can accept. But if the reason is something like she’s not suitable, she’s not from our class, or the mother has picked someone else for the hero, …I really don’t like it esp. if it causes some conflict since the mother would do some underhanded stuff to make the heroine look bad and the hero doesn’t get it at all and even sides with the mother (or father/sister/brother whoever hates the heroine).When I get parts like this, I really want the heroine to just walk away and never go back to the hero ‘coz she’ll not just be marrying him but his whole family, yikes!
Olivia
“One theory, which I find interesting, but which I have not examined closely, is that the motive behind such laws was to promote assimilation by immigrants through non-familial marriage”
That’s an interesting and persuasive line of argument. I believe, for example, that Sephardic Jews have to be very cautious maritally, as the genetic disease Tay-Sachs is prevalent, presumably persisting because of generations of endogamy within the close-knit community?
I suspect though, that even if the cousin marriage ban were lifted everywhere, many would still find it repellent simply because they’ve been brought up to find it repellent. In perhaps a more controversial way, maybe the same could be said of homosexuality, that resistance or acceptance is highly culturally determined?
“In some books when the heroine is somewhat jealous of this closeness between the hero and another woman he’ll say something to the effect of: “she’s just my cousin†implying that there can be no romantic relationship. Yet, if it is not taboo, theoretically, he could be having some sort of “romantic/physical†relationship with her. ”
This one’s interesting too! I suspect here the author is deliberately creating an emotional ambiguity to ‘torment’ the heroine. Perhaps one of the ‘allures’ of cousins is that they can combine the familiarity and automatic intimacy of family, but also be a sufficient ’stranger’ to be ‘romantic’. I think it may be emotionally similar to step-siblings (and I know that some find romance between people who have been raised as siblings, even though they are genetically quite disparate, to be repellent.)
Madeline – I have to say I haven’t come across any blatantly non-consensual sex, I think, in any modern HPs (I haven’t read the one that got debated earlier), but I agree it can be a tricky issue. For example, we accept that the heroines (and heroes!) can drink alcohol, and be ‘tipsy’ but what if a heroine ‘under the influence’ enthusiastically fell into bed with the hero, and then regretted it in the morning?? And what about where the heroine doesn’t actually want to have sex with the hero (or to be more precise, she doesn’t want an AFFAIR with the hero!)(because she knows it’s a one way ticket to a broken heart!!), but agrees to do so for an ulterior motive – is that sufficiently consensual?
I agree – determining the limits of ‘bad boy’ stuff is great fun, and quite fascinating to debate, as I think this is an area which can have a fuzzy border across readers’ personal criteria.
Julia
“It’s when the family of the hero (coming from Greek, or Italian or another very-family oriented culture) has some “bearing†or “say†in the hero’s choice of girlfriend/partner/wife. ”
This is another good one, and certainly can come to the fore in royal romances -see the blog on the Niroli series for example! One of the phrases I bear in mind is from Jane Austen’s Mansfield Park where the heroine’s mother ‘married to disoblige her family’ (I think that’s Austen’s phrasing!), and it is, I think, a consideration that still holds true for everyone except orphans – to what extent should we as individuals take into account the feelings of our family? I myself would hate to ‘marry to disoblige my family’(or his!), because it seems that it would lead to more unhappiness in the future, but at the same time, we can hardly NOT marry someone we love just because our families don’t like them, or marry someone because they do! But I also know that I’d be pretty upset if my daughter came home married to some druggie, or my son to some floozie!
On a lighter note, on being a ‘mama’s boy’, there’s a lovely funny song I heard sung by a bunch of Italian men (sorry, can’t remember their name!) which was sung to the rollicking tune of Funiculi, Funicular, and extolled the comparitive appeals of a whole host of potential brides, and how impossible it was to choose between them, and ends with the line ‘I’ll take them home to Mama and let her decide for me’ !!
Julia
Hi there,
Interesting topic, Lidia. I also find it odd reading any books about cousins marrying (I’m from the US, upstate NY). I remember reading some titles with this plot quite a while ago, but not lately. Some of my distaste probably comes from looking around at my own cousins, yikes, not a Harlequin Presents hero in the bunch! And, we also were brought up having lots of family reunions and parties, so my cousins also seem like distant brothers and sisters to me.
I don’t believe I have any cultural issues with any HP books I read, at least nothing that has stopped me from reading a book. I even like the somewhat “tough” heros that many people might find offensive, although not all of them.
I wonder if there are any women from Saudi Arabia on the blog? One cultural thing that I have wondered about is knowing that HP books are popular in SA, I wonder if the books are being read by actual Saudi Arabian women or ex-pats who happen to be living in the country?
If they are read by local women, I wonder what they think of the Presents version of Sheiks? The way the Sheiks treat the heorines is mostly with a Western sensibility, not very realistic in a country where talking to a stranger can get a women killed (or at least arrested) by the Morality police.
I wonder if these women resent the Presents version of their men, or maybe would like it to be true (and there must be quite a few men in SA who wouldn’t condon killing women for driving, talking to a man or going out of the house to see a doctor, but they just haven’t come to power yet)? I have a cousin who has chosen to live in SA (not a strategy that the rest of us can understand, she complains about not being able to drive and get around, the easy answer to that one would be to leave!), I will have to ask her about that.
Cheryl
I can honestly say that there were some books that really upset me. However, I won’t go into those here because the purpose of this post was to discuss “cultural differences” and not personal “hot buttons.” All of us have our own “hot buttons” and that’s OK — not every book will appeal to every reader. Cultural differences are an entirely different matter. Those are affected by our upbringing, be it religious or ethnic. We really can’t help ourselves when those are affected by what we read.
The comments about sheik books is very interesting. While I realize that this is all fiction and make believe, one does have to wonder what SA women think about them. That brings up another point — can the SA women read HPs without getting into trouble — or do they have to sneak and hide the books.?
Julia, I agree that first cousin marriage can be so culturally taboo that, regardless of its legality, people in that culture would find it abhorrent. For example, I do not think that US readers would enjoy an HP novel with an American hero and heroine who are first cousins. However, I would like to think that Americans are receptive to the ways of other cultures. So, for example, if a novel were set in England with a hero and heroine who are first cousins (perhaps marrying for matters of title, estate, or fortune), I do not think that American readers would respond in quite the same way. There are limits to their receptiveness, however. If a novel were set in Arabia with a heroine becoming one of the hero’s wives, I would guess that American readers would find it abhorrent. Polygamy, which strikes at the very core of the Western romance novel (i.e. the heroine must be the one, and only one, for the hero), would be too great a cultural divide for them to cross.
On the matter of non-consensual sex, I do not think that the sex between the heroine and hero can ever be non-consensual. She may hate him (or convince herself that she does, at least!) before, and she may hate him (or, more likely, hate herself for having wanted him!) after, having sex with him, but, when he is poised at the threshold, she must want him to enter. The beauty of the HP novel is not only the incredible pleasure that she can derive from sex with him even under emotionally conflicting circumstances, but the myriad of emotions that she can experience before and after such sexual encounter. Even if she does not want an affair, a marriage of convenience, or whatever other sort of relationship that she feels he is forcing upon her, she must want him sexually in that moment. Are there cultural differences on this topic, or is this a universal view held by women? In other words, she might be angry with herself afterwards, but, if she wanted him in that moment, she will not deny (at least to herself) that it was consensual.
On the ‘bad behavior’ issue of the alpha male, I think that the hero can be very bad. In fact, we might be disappointed if he is not very bad, but we expect him to be bad primarily with respect to redirecting her life and setting her upon an emotional roller coaster (we could never accept him doing anything illegal or abusive). How far can he go, however? Will one culture accept him going farther than another (relevant, for example, in the Italian/Greek revenge stories)? Or, does it not matter how far he goes so long as, in the end, he is restored to a favorable light because he loves the heroine with all his heart and soul?
CT, I was just thinking of polygamy, which I would guess must be above first cousin marriage on the list, at least as far as offending Western sensibilities. Perhaps, for this reason, the hero in the Arabian stories tends to have some Western connection that influenced his development and thinking (e.g., mother was an English nanny or companion to his father’s first Arabian wife; he was educated in England or US, etc.). How could we accept him otherwise, right? Your question is intriguing, however. What does the Arabian female reader think of the Arabian hero with Western views? On a similar issue, I have always wondered what we would think if we read romances written by foreign authors for foreign readers, but translated into English. Could there be other cultural divides too great for us to cross? Or, might we enjoy reading, for example, an Arabian story with an Arabian hero with pure Arabian thinking, provided that the heroine is an Arabian woman?
When I lived in Washington, DC, on Saturday mornings at the market, I saw entire Chinese families who had come to the market to display new male offspring to other members of their community while beautiful little daughters stood silently, and Indian families where his mother would chose everything and he would pay at the register while his wife stood silently. At my doctor’s office (and the doctor happened to be female), I saw Arabian wives in chador accompanied by their husband (or by another male of authority and trust from the embassy). Do the majority of these women want freedom and equality, as we tend to assume, or are they happy in a way that we cannot appreciate? Do Eastern women know some secret about the male soul that Western women do not? Or, are they desperate to escape from their golden cages?
I suppose that there are cultural differences that Western readers will find repellant no matter how handled (e.g., polygamy, male ownership of women, female subjugation), and those that readers will not even find distasteful if handled in a certain manner (e.g., consideration of family wishes in choice of wife). For example, like the Arabian hero who has a Western outlook, the Italian/Greek hero can consider his family’s wishes but decide to have the woman of his desires, regardless of their wishes. In such a scenario, the cultural difference can serve to establish, or further, the hero as an alpha male. Perhaps this is the line for the cultural difference divide. In other words, in HP novels, we want our alpha male who is worthy of being tamed, and our spirited independent heroine who is the only woman who can tame him, with a ‘happily ever after’ ending in which they are joined in heart and soul forever. If the cultural difference strikes at the core of this dynamic, we cannot cross the divide.
Madeline
More excellent food for thought! The polygamy one took me aback, and I realised of course that for many women it’s a ‘normal’ part of their lives. But I agree, even if polygamy works for some women in their cultures, I would say it does run completely counter to the underlying premise of a romance novel. Similarly, so does the idea that a married man can have a wife and a mistress (or a married woman a lover of course.) I think another cultural taboo for me would be a hero and heroine who were into let us say ‘particular sexual practices’, such as S&M and bondage, or wearing rubber, or genital body piercings (or whatever!!) as again I think them incompatible with the premise of a romance novel.
“Even if she does not want an affair, a marriage of convenience, or whatever other sort of relationship that she feels he is forcing upon her, she must want him sexually in that moment” – yes, I agree that would seem to be key, BUT, I’m not necessarily convinced that sexual desire always represents ‘true consent’ (for want of a better term).
I say this because when my hero in Purchased for Revenge had what was fundamentally abusive sex with the heroine (he was deliberately degrading her)(that sounds appalling, but I hope, if you read the story, you will see why he made that decision, and maybe exonerate him by the end of the book, as the heroine did)(though you may not!)(it’s a very dark book, I do warn you!), the worst aspect for her was that she got got physical pleasure from something she knew perfectly well was abusive.
She’d made the choice to endure it for reasons she thought valid. But although she took physical pleasure from the sex, that did not make it ‘all right’ for her – in fact, the pleasure actually made it ‘all wrong’, and compounded her torment. Had she been able to resist the ‘imposition of sexual pleasure’ on her during the sex, she would have felt far less abused.
PFR, by the way, I would say, represents the furthest I’ve ever gone so far as the hero’s ‘bad behaviour’ is concerned, although his actual crime is not what he’s done to the heroine (though it is for her!)(the difference is that he thinks her quite different from what she is!), but what he did to himself – he succumbed to an evil temptation, knowingly having sex with a woman he considered morally rotten and depraved, and he is, afterwards, disgusted with himself for having succumbed. (When he discovers she’s not morally rotten he’s appalled at the damage he’s inflicted on her.)
I do find the whole issue of ‘bad behaviour’ in the hero fascinating, beause it calls up the most complex issues of human morality. The most common ‘bad behaviours’ of HP heroes is probably blackmailing the heroine into sex, and paying her for sex. Using sex as a punishment for her (supposed!) crime in a revenge plot may be another one (eg, seducing her and breaking her heart, because she broke the heart of his younger brother he thinks..).
It goes without saying that unless the hero has good cause to be exonerated for his bad behaviour, the only way he can win the heroine is by fessing up and repenting and fundamentally improving himself as a human being – ie, becoming a hero finally!
But are there some bad behaviours that are too bad? Impossible to come back from heroically? PFR pushed me to the limit of my tolerance (and possibly well beyond that of many readers!), but I’m trying to think what other bad behaviours I would consider beyond the pale? Taking a child from its (loving) mother would be one, though whether threatening to do so would count, I don’t know. I’m equally unsure about blackmailing her into sex by threatening to ruin a innocent person. Obviously carrying out the threat would damn him, but would ‘just’ threatening to carry it out do so?? At the very least, it must make the heroine hold him in complete contempt, simply for making the threat in the first place.
Do others think these are ‘bad behaviours’ by the hero? What would you consider bad behaviours? And are they recoverable from? Or do they put the hero beyond the pale, even if he repented of them?
Julia
Julia,
I remember reading Purchased for Revenge. It was quite an emotional read. I don’t remember reading any previous HP book that had the hero actually go into a decline due to guilt over how he treated the heroine, that was unique. I did enjoy the book and was happy at the end when the heroine forgave him, it is in my keeper pile somewhere in this messy house.
Madeline, I can tolerate quite a bit of “bad behavior” in the alpha male hero, but my tolerance actually varies by book, I guess it depends on how much the hero appeals to me overall. I don’t have a problem with the revenge or blackmailing into marriage/affair-type stories. Also, taking revenge on a heroine due to what a relative supposedly did to the hero’s family. I also like the books where the hero seduces the heroine to save his sister’s (or some other relative’s) marriage. I’m probably more interested in these later types right now than the others, maybe because they are not as numerous.
Two of my favorite HP books have very “hard” heros and even though they outrage me sometimes and I might want the heroine to spurn the hero at the end, I love these two books (both by Robyn Donald, A Mansion for my Love and Smoke in the Wind). The hero in Mansion for my Love groveled a little more than the other one at the end, so he’s my favorite.
Julia, good question on the limits of bad behavior. I think that a hero taking a child from a loving home would be beyond the pale. But, if he thought (mistakenly, of course!) that the mother was not good and the child needed protection, then probably ok, but, it would depend. Same for threatening to ruin an innocent person, would depend on the situation.
Generally, for me to accept the hero doing these types of things, I would need him to believe that he is acting for the good of either a child, his family, maybe his business (if many people would be affected, lose their jobs, etc….) or for “revenge” motives above and that the heroine has some kind of (perceived through his eyes) moral issue. I wouldn’t want the hero to threaten an innocent child or person just to force the heroine to have sex with him, he has to have a good reason (and be REALLY sorry when he finds out his reason is incorrect!)
Cheryl
Lidia, how terrific to see you posting here, and what a great topic. I’ve come in late and have been scrolling through all the fascinating comments.
Here in Australia it’s not illegal for cousins to marry but it’s always been discouraged. The only cases of it that I know are from previous generations and they caused considerable head shaking.
Another potential hot button is the idea of the hero having a relationship with one woman and then later with her sister. Or vice versa – the heroine having been married to/going out with one man and then afterwards begins a relationship with his brother. I’ve seen negative comments on that sort of plot.
You’re so right about the differences being in the eye of the beholder. I’ve been receiving reader feedback on my stories and sometimes I find what made the book a success for one person was seen as a fault by another. For instance in my first Presents novel the heroine saw herself as big and buxom (she was tall and she’d had a weight problem as a teenager which she’d grown out of but that affected her view of herself). I had several people congratulate me on this aspect of Marina but I also had one person write to me who didn’t like that about her. I don’t know if having a ‘perfect’ heroine is a cultural issue, but it is something that some readers have strong views on.
Thanks so much for this blog, Lidia. It’s really made me sit back and consider the ‘cultural differences’ issue.
Annie
Oh my goodness, yet more and more great points!
First of all, though, Cheryl, thank you so much for saying you enjoyed PFR, strong meat though it was! I know the book got very mixed reactions because of its content.
“Also, taking revenge on a heroine due to what a relative supposedly did to the hero’s family”
Ah – ooh -gosh! The moment I read that I immediately thought of those searing HPs from the past in which that was such a powerful theme – and which were so totally politically nonPC! But oh yes, did they carry me away! I don’t think they could be written any more, to be honest – you know, those ones which have the hero deliberately seduce the heroine (worse, sometimes, outright blackmail and threaten her into sex!), in order to punish someone like her brother who had ‘dared’ to have an affair with the hero’s precious sister – which is probably just as well, as they really are pretty outrageous by current standards!! But they were just fantastic reads, and make you almost physically shake with emotion. Two of the all time greats in that vein just have to be Sara Craven’s Alien Vengeance and Penny Jordan’s Response. Completly unputdownable!
“Another potential hot button is the idea of the hero having a relationship with one woman and then later with her sister. Or vice versa – the heroine having been married to/going out with one man and then afterwards begins a relationship with his brother. I’ve seen negative comments on that sort of plot”
Yes, me too! And I think I share them. I do think in the end it’s a bit creepy knowing that the man you love has had sex with your own sister, or vice versa for the hero. It CAN work, under exceptional circumstances – usually when the ‘other affair’ has been not a ‘real’ one. For example, if the hero has slept with the other woman out of, effectively, pity (I’m not sure it was a sister plot, but I do remember a very moving one where the hero marries another woman who is dying, who was always unrequitedly in love with him, just to make her happy in her final months.) Robyn Donald’s incredibly powerful Smoke in the Wind deals with this issue, and although the hero is controversial (!) by today’s standards, RD brings home with a tremendous emotional punch the moment when he realises that his marriage to the ’sweet young cousin’ (so different from the feisty heroine) has been the worst mistake of his life, but there’s nothing he can do – he’s trapped. You realise he DID get his punishment for abandoning the heroine. (I do wish, though, that his wife had just divorced him, having matured enough to fall for the ‘right’ man for her, rather than died! I hate people dying in books when they don’t deserve to!)(though sadly so many HP plots do have a very high ‘kill rate’, such as orphaned nephews and nieces, heroines left penniless and in debt, heroes rendered emotionally dysfunctional because their parents died in childhood, etc)(Sharpen your scythe, HP author coming through!!!)
Julia
“I find what made the book a success for one person was seen as a fault by another. For instance in my first Presents novel the heroine saw herself as big and buxom …. I also had one person write to me who didn’t like that about her.”
Now, that’s fascinating. I completely identified with your heroine, and I’m sure huge numbers of women do, because you brought out the real problem in respect of our appearance – when we BELIEVE ourselves unattractive we BECOME unattractive! I thought you did her brilliantly!
“I don’t know if having a ‘perfect’ heroine is a cultural issue, but it is something that some readers have strong views on.”
I suspect (darkly!) this may all depend on what the reader’s own looks are like. I do think it’s probably impossible psychologically, for example, for a woman who has always been beautiful (pretty child, gorgeous teenager, stunning adult, etc), to ‘buy in’ to the Ugly Duckling fairytale. I suspect she just won’t get it??? But maybe I’m completely wrong (not being a woman who fits the bill above!!!!)(which is exactly why I DO love the UD fairytale!)
Coming in very late on this one too, Lidia. There’s certainly been a lot happening this week on blogs (and not enough on certain books, if truth be told). Great topic and great to see you here. Personally I think hot buttons can come from both cultural/environmental influences and personal dislikes or even personal experience, and see that sometimes our personal dislikes are based on our upbringing and personal cultural development. There’s definitely an overlap.
Have loved everyone’s comments, especially Madeline’s fascinating insights and equally thought-provoking questions. I really wish I knew the answers Madeline. But did appreciate your comment about alpha heroes showing their qualities by defying their own family’s/communities expectations – “In such a scenario, the cultural difference can serve to establish, or further, the hero as an alpha male. Perhaps this is the line for the cultural difference divide.” And I’m left thinking you might be right.
Then Julia wrote –
““Also, taking revenge on a heroine due to what a relative supposedly did to the hero’s familyâ€
Ah – ooh -gosh! The moment I read that I immediately thought of those searing HPs from the past in which that was such a powerful theme – and which were so totally politically nonPC! But oh yes, did they carry me away! I don’t think they could be written any more, to be honest – you know, those ones which have the hero deliberately seduce the heroine”
I actually think they’re alive and well Julia – that was in fact the theme of my January “The Greek’s Virgin” where the hero is set to take the heroine’s virginity in a pure act of revenge for what had happened to his sister years ago. The fact he doesn’t (take the heroine’s virginity) causes more friction between them when later they meet, which also gives the heroine her own opportunity for revenge.
I think it’s all about the hero’s motivation, pulling off a theme like that. Like Kate Walker has been known to say once or twice – “it’s all in the execution”
And Annie, loved your first book too. Thought you did a brilliant job with your heroine. She was someone the reader could definitely empathise with – a definite plus.
Hello everyone! There are so many of you posting and I don’t want to miss anyone — not naming anyone. LOL
Would you believe that I also loved the two books you mentioned CT and also the ones that you mentioned Julia.
Julia, the other book that you referred to (the pity one)was not a sister theme. It was written by Emma Darcy, “Always Love.” The only nagging “issue” that I had with it is that the heroine had his son, then he had a daughter by the dying friend. The kids were about six months apart in age — the “yuck” factor set in for me.
Annie, I loved the fact that your heroine at first wasn’t comfortable with herself/her body. Isn’t that the reason why some people become anorexic? When they look in the mirror they really don’t see what the rest of us do.
I agree with Trish that taking revenge on the heroine for something someone else did is still alive. Some of the most powerful HPs are those with the revenge theme — when they’re executed right. (There was a discussion about revenge themed books here not too long ago.)
lidia says: “I agree with Trish that taking revenge on the heroine for something someone else did is still alive. Some of the most powerful HPs are those with the revenge theme — when they’re executed right. (There was a discussion about revenge themed books here not too long ago.)”
True, one book I loved, The Greek’s Bridal Bargain by Melanie Milburne (which blogged about here: http://www.iheartpresents.com/?p=64), had a little of this. The hero, Kane marries the heroine to faciliate his revenge against her entire family (especially her father). I think it worked, for a couple of reasons. First, Bryony (the heroine) knew what Kane was doing and she wasn’t some passive, innocent little victim. Also, Kane only hid things from Bryony for her protection, and didn’t lie to seduce as part of her revenge. He wanted to “teach her a lesson” for his mistreatment in the past but I never thought he wanted to hurt her.
Hello to everyone!
Yesterday, when we were discussing the parameters of non-consensual sex and alpha hero bad behavior, I wrote: “On the matter of non-consensual sex, I do not think that the sex between the heroine and hero can ever be non-consensual. She may hate him (or convince herself that she does, at least!) before, and she may hate him (or, more likely, hate herself for having wanted him!) after, having sex with him, but, when he is poised at the threshold, she must want him to enter.â€
I was thinking of the marriage of convenience, rich man’s mistress, office romance, etc. storylines, where we know that, when the hero and heroine come to the point of having sex for the first time, he desires her with a passion for passion’s sake and with no other consideration as a primary motivator at that moment (although he has not declared his love for her, and even may not have come to the realization that he does loves her, yet!). He has no dark ulterior motive, such as REVENGE. We can be confident in knowing that he desires her for her, and, in the end, will love her for always (even though she cannot be certain of it at that moment and, in fact, everything to that point perhaps has suggested otherwise to her), and, because of this, we can taste a sweetness in the first joining.
Julia, your thought-provoking response, which launched us into the ever-fascinating topic of the revenge story, was: “I’m not necessarily convinced that sexual desire always represents ‘true consent’ (for want of a better term). I say this because when my hero in Purchased for Revenge had what was fundamentally abusive sex with the heroine (he was deliberately degrading her)(that sounds appalling, but I hope, if you read the story, you will see why he made that decision, and maybe exonerate him by the end of the book, as the heroine did)(though you may not!)(it’s a very dark book, I do warn you!), the worst aspect for her was that she got got physical pleasure from something she knew perfectly well was abusive.â€
Oh, yes, the REVENGE story, which has it own unique set of concerns! Julia, I must confess with regret that I have not read PFR (it got by me somehow, even though I enjoy revenge stories as well as the darker stories), but I promise to keep an eye out for a copy and, once I have it in my hands, read it straight away. So, relying on your description above, and on an excerpt posted on your website, I agree with you that it is highly questionable as to whether the sex, although pleasurable, was consensual.
In the world of romance (and especially revealed to us in the revenge story), there is not only the consent of the body, but the consent of the heart. I think that, with revenge stories (whether the heroine knows of the hero’s revenge motivation or not before they have sex for the first time), the consent of her heart will be in serious question always because the hero’s heart is in doubt from the beginning. Depending on how far the hero takes his revenge, he will have to journey as far as the heroine to rehabilitate himself and capture her heart.
Julia, as you know, to accomplish this in PFR, you had to take your hero along a path of suffering as long and dark as the heroine’s before they could both emerge into the light and find everlasting love. If you had not, we could not have accepted the heroine’s love for the hero at the end. It makes for an intense and dark story, but there are HP readers looking for dark intensity as well as for the lighter conflict.
Taking the posts since yesterday as a whole, I think that the discussion on the revenge story highlights a wondrous fact about HP readers (which includes the authors, of course!) Consider what everyone had to say:
Cheryl wrote: “I don’t have a problem with the revenge or blackmailing into marriage/affair-type stories. Also, taking revenge on a heroine due to what a relative supposedly did to the hero’s family.â€
Annie wrote: “You’re so right about the differences being in the eye of the beholder. I’ve been receiving reader feedback on my stories and sometimes I find what made the book a success for one person was seen as a fault by another.â€
Julia wrote: “Ah – ooh -gosh! The moment I read that I immediately thought of those searing HPs from the past in which that was such a powerful theme – and which were so totally politically nonPC! But oh yes, did they carry me away! I don’t think they could be written any more, to be honest – you know, those ones which have the hero deliberately seduce the heroine (worse, sometimes, outright blackmail and threaten her into sex!), in order to punish someone like her brother who had ‘dared’ to have an affair with the hero’s precious sister – which is probably just as well, as they really are pretty outrageous by current standards!! But they were just fantastic reads, and make you almost physically shake with emotion.â€
Trish wrote: “I actually think they’re alive and well Julia – that was in fact the theme of my January “The Greek’s Virgin†where the hero is set to take the heroine’s virginity in a pure act of revenge for what had happened to his sister years ago. The fact he doesn’t (take the heroine’s virginity) causes more friction between them when later they meet, which also gives the heroine her own opportunity for revenge. I think it’s all about the hero’s motivation, pulling off a theme like that. Like Kate Walker has been known to say once or twice – “it’s all in the executionâ€
Lidia wrote: “I agree with Trish that taking revenge on the heroine for something someone else did is still alive. Some of the most powerful HPs are those with the revenge theme — when they’re executed right. (There was a discussion about revenge themed books here not too long ago.)â€
The HP reader devours the current titles and eagerly awaits the new ones each month, but, if she visits a used bookstore or happens upon the odd book sale, she searches for old titles (even with the knowledge that it stops at the bedroom door!). She has stayed with HP since first being introduced (whether that was last year or a lifetime ago) through changes in the times, the world and the heroine (but not so many changes in the hero, thank God!). In sum, I think that the heart and soul of the HP reader has incredible breadth and depth, and, because of this, the themes (whether old or new, politically correct or not, culturally questionable or not) will always hold the seed of life, requiring only the right execution to bring them to life.
Madeline
P.S. Julia, regarding PFR, when you started your hero and heroine along their journey, did you find that THEY were the ones to take you to the end of that journey?
P.P.S. Cheryl, I am still laughing about your line “yikes, not a Harlequin Presents hero in the bunch!â€
“The HP reader devours the current titles and eagerly awaits the new ones each month, but, if she visits a used bookstore or happens upon the odd book sale, she searches for old titles (even with the knowledge that it stops at the bedroom door!).”
–You are so right Madeleine. I can personally attest to this. In fact I don’t just buy old titles I also buy books that I have read or owned before. Back then I never thought of keeping books forever. When I think of all the books I have given away, it really breaks my heart. I have also bought some books like 3x since friends borrow and lend it to others until it never comes back to me again! Some books I have bought again and again are Night Music, That Boston Man, etc. Really oldies, I was around 12/13 when I read those. They were “passed” on to me by an aunt.*Sigh* If only I could have back everything I’ve given away.
“She has stayed with HP since first being introduced (whether that was last year or a lifetime ago) through changes in the times, the world and the heroine.”
– I totally agree, as well. Yes, the world has evolved or maybe it’s just the reader who has matured (or both). I remember reading Heart of Stone by Janet Dailey again just recently. It was one of my favs when I was in my teens. But now, I can’t relate to the heroine anymore or even fawn over the hero. Maybe because women are now more empowered and men are also now more sensitive. Or maybe it’s just me, in my early 30s, having lived life as well. But I still do enjoy “That Boston Man” a lot.
Olivia,
I just mentioned That Boston Man on the e-harlequin community boards a few days ago. Lexi and Rome, or, after so many years, am I mistaken?
Madeline
Madeline, yup! Lexi and Rome. After so many years, the story is still so fresh! (Didn’t get to log on at eharlerquin yet)
There’s another oldie MB/HQ the title of which I can’t recall, the story is kind of similar to that of Lexi and Rome, which seems to show the emergence of feminism in society. The plot goes like this…the heroine is a receptionist at the office of the hero(the hero never notices her). One day she overhears the hero telling a friend that he’ll never get tied down ‘coz there are lots of women falling all over him so why should he get hitched? The next day the heroine puts out an ad in the papers announcing their engagement and everything follows from there…Do you know/remember the title of this?
Olivia
Goodness, this is SUCH an intense and wide-ranging debate, isn’t it? Excellent!
(BTW sorry my sign off seemed to get inserted into the middle of my last post!)
Plots where the hero seduces the heroine to punish her brother/father etc:
Trish – The Greek’s Virgin – how on earth did you get away with it??!!!! I shall have to read it and find out!
I do think it’s a very tricky moral issue indeed, in that what the hero is doing in those plots is using the heroine for his own ends, and punishing her for someone else’s misdeeds, which I find very hard to stomach. Now, it could be that, say, the heroine has actually enjoyed the seduction perfectly nicely thank you (!), BUT, I would still think that discovering that your lover has only slept with you to humiliate or punish someone else, is NOT easily forgiveable. I think as a reader I would definitely expect the heroine to take very harsh revenge indeed to see justice done on the hero, and, of course, the hero also has to suffer because he’ll discover he’s gone and fallen in love with the one woman who, thanks to his own exploitation of her, now has every good reason to despise snd hate him.
Whereas I don’t have a problem with heroes who have reasonable cause to think ill of the heroine, if she is obviously blameless in whatever wrong was done to him and his, then I do think that any decent human being would not use her as his instrument of revenge.
I think, for me, if I were attempting a plot like that, I would very definitely have to make clear that this was a novel in which the hero undergoes his own ‘moral redemption’ and emerges a better person – a true hero at last – fit, indeed, for the heroine’s love (or, indeed, admission into decent society!!!). Even if the hero had actually pulled back at the brink, and chosen NOT to use the heroine in that way, it still says quite a lot of ‘bad stuff’ about a man who’d even given it houseroom in the first place!
Mind you, I could see the plot working for me if, say, the heroine were an Ugly Duckling (but still the sister/daughter etc of the man who wronged the hero or his kin!), and though whilst an affair with her might be to humiliate or ‘get at’ the brother/father, it would also, simultaneously ‘do a bit of good’ for the heroine, as she herself would gain something from the affair – eg, sexual self-confidence and a brilliant make-over! However, the hero would have to ensure she never found out he was using her. (Though of course she wood, and then she’d go into revenge mode!!!)
******
Lidia wrote “The only nagging “issue†that I had with it is that the heroine had his son, then he had a daughter by the dying friend. The kids were about six months apart in age — the “yuck†factor set in for me.”
Agree, that’s a very tricky one. Try having a sibling only six months older than you!
**********
Madeline – I do give you a definitely warning about Purchased for Revenge! Not a fun read, I promise you!
“Julia, regarding PFR, when you started your hero and heroine along their journey, did you find that THEY were the ones to take you to the end of that journey?”
In that one I think not so much. because the background is so very dark (sex trafficking and murder), I had to control it very tightly. It was extremely difficult to write about the very distressing “bad sex scene” because I had to portray a man who was deliberately indulging in degradation and pornography – and yet NOT damn him completely (though some readers may think he is!) for doing so. To me, it was ONLY because he felt such self-disgust at having himself physically enjoyed pornographic sex, that showed any germ of redemptive possibility for him.
(see what I mean about it not being a fun read!!!)(I NEVER want to write such a harrowing book again, and I’m glad I’ve now done my anti-pornography ‘Here I stand’ that I wrote it for, and can with huge relief return to the real subject matter of romance fiction. Phew!)
*******
“The plot goes like this…the heroine is a receptionist at the office of the hero(the hero never notices her). One day she overhears the hero telling a friend that he’ll never get tied down ‘coz there are lots of women falling all over him so why should he get hitched? The next day the heroine puts out an ad in the papers announcing their engagement and everything follows from there…”
Olivia – this sounds such a fun rom-com plot. Such a nuisance it’s already been written!!!
Julia
Julia,
I loved Purchased for Revenge. I’m sorry that you won’t be writing another similarly “dark” book… yes, it’s not the typical presents and that might turn some more traditional readers off. But myself I like the HP books that push the envelope a bit. These are the books that stand out to me and the ones that I read more than once…
Especially if the hero is particularly appealing
By the way, I am trying to figure out which southeastern european country, if any, your fictional Dalmaczia(sp) is based upon…(Bulgaria, Albania, Croatia??)
My favorite HP books are those which really make the reader FEEL, and as a couple of posters said above, the pure emotion in some HP books is just great and why I keep reading. Anyway: kudos to you and I hope you perhaps reconsider writing another book someday in the same vein as PFR!
Julia, if you write one with a similar plot I am sure it will surely stand out since you will be able to inject your own creativity in the flow of the story. And it will also reflect the attitude and lifestyle of the current single woman as opposed to the one in the 70s. Please do write one!
Olivia
Hi Ladies!
I am a college student in Texas researching for a speech about Western women’s attraction to Sheik romance novels. I read an article in a magazine that stated the publishing of these novels have quadrupled since the 9/11, implying that women’s interest has been steered towards the “bad boy”. I am writing this in hopes that the women that enjoy these particular romance novels can help me learn about why they do and does it have any connection with conflicts in the middle east? Thank you for your responses.
Jessica